Forum:Gun Damage Math?
So I'm really confused with the damage performance of some of my guns. I'll run the math and one gun will seem far superior or maybe even ridiculous. Then i go and use it and it's terrible. I think I'm messing up the formulas. Here's how I'm doing my gun math: Damage * Multiplier * Fire Rate * damage buff percentage(+50% of course being done as *1.5) * Fire Rate Buff * Elemental multiplier (1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2) So an SMG with 44X4 DMG, 6.4 Fire Rate, +33% damage buff, +23% damage buff, x3 Explosion I would get: 44 * 4 * 6.4 * 1.33 * 1.23 * 1.75 = 3225 DPS rounded up. Some guns like Boom Stick seem absurd with this formula. I get numbers in the 100,000s of DPS with the math but it performs worse than guns that do only 1.5K DPS. What am I doing wrong here? I'm pretty sure Damage and other Buffs are already applied, you do not need to add them again.WarriorAngel 19:32, March 8, 2010 (UTC) Well the Boom Stick for example was something about 450 damage...then it had a buff of +600%. This either means the damage per bullet is 270,000 or it's base damage is 0.75 before buffs...both seem terribly incorrect. I don't think you understand how percentages work... you don't multiply by 600 you multiply by 6.00. Which means 2,700 or 75 which could both be correct depending on the level of the weapon. It sounds like a play through 1 version so I'd guess that the original damage was 75 and then it have a 600% buff making the damage 450. WarriorAngel 21:21, March 8, 2010 (UTC) UnrealEd is pretty useful to understand the damage. In fact, each gun has a normalized damage (you can see it in the debug with the secret command to bind in files), and it depends of multipliers and weapon type. The +X% damage is included. By example, a repeater has a Normalized Damage of 0.9. If you can see +20% damage, the ND will be 1.2*0.9 = 1.08. But if I stop here, it's not funny, there is a relation between damage of the weapon, his level and the ND. The relation is : 0.8*ND*(9+(Lvl+2)^1.3). This is the damage of the GUN. By example, if your weapon have a ND of 12 (much!!) and his level is 50, his damage will be 1720. The damage you'll give will be calculated from your weapon damage (really?), your skills (there are ones which increase damage), your proficiency, the elementals (not included in the damage) if there is any, and, most important, THE DIFFERENCE of levels between you and your enemy. And for the Anonymous, +600% means *7 and not *600...The base damage by bullet is ~64, which is normal because it's a shotgun (Normally it would be 64*Nb of Projectiles). I'm extracting the game data from Borderlands so if you have a technical question I can answer (or not...) Seud 21:51, March 8, 2010 (UTC) Ok startin to get it...and yeah i totally accidentally did *600 instead of *6.00 ...odd since I'm retardedly good at math to make such a mistake lol. Thanks. Still need to learn how to add elemental damage, took a peak at the official guide and each type of weapon also has some weird effect. I can guesstimate, but still.Ivyfanboy 06:38, March 10, 2010 (UTC) Stats like +% Damage, +% Recoil Reduction, +% Magazine etc is just in reference to the base weapon of that type. Example: A base Sniper rifle does 100 damage but if you find one that does 150 damage then it should have a stat of +50% Damage. A Boom Stick with +600% Damage simply means it does 6x the damage of it's base shotgun. Frankly, I ignore these stats as they aren't meaningful in-game. It's either a good weapon to use or it's not. If I find a weapon that's better than the same type I already have, I keep it. If not, I dump it. MeMadeIt 13:35, March 12, 2010 (UTC) Calculating specific damage is a bit too tedious for me, especially in-game. I like to keep it simple. I discount proficiencies as they apply to all weapons of the same type so it's just "gravy". To calculate elemental damage, use this formula: : Base Damage + (Base Damage * Elemental Multiplies) = Total Damage : Example: A weapon does 100 damage with x2 elemental. Total damage = 100+(100*2) = 300 : Explosive elemental delivers that total damage immediately while Incendiary/Corrosive/Shock elementals parse it out over several seconds. The advantge of Explosive is it kills right NOW and doesn't let the enemy to continue to attack you while it "bleeds out" as with the other elementals. The advantage of the other elementals is that they are "contagious" and can spread the damage effect to any other enemy they come into contact with yielding a total damage well beyond the basic formula. MeMadeIt 13:48, March 12, 2010 (UTC) : : :Buffs are already applied. The damage you see from enemies depend of their type, the place you hit, their level, yours (Your weapons do less damage if your level is lower than enemy's one), the material you hit (Flesh, shield or armor for Crimson Lance - each occurs a bonus to a precise elemental) and of course your weapons. : How i know these infos? With an unrealEd, some upks and a bit of time. Elemental damage depends of much criterias. : And in bonus, a special thing : Every weapon with elemental has 5/6 of damage of non-elemental counterpart. : MeMadelt, you were partially wrong when you said every % is variation from base weapon : some weapons parts don't show these variations (number varies in stats but nothing is added to weapon's card)Seud 14:46, May 28, 2010 (UTC) :::"Some weapon parts" like what? --Nagamarky 15:10, May 28, 2010 (UTC) ::: :::Like the Crashed Sash's recharge delay or the Super Booster's health regen and max health increase, or the inherent 0.05 second refire reduction on all atlas guns, or the vast library of legendary weapons that don't give a peep about what the special effect is. Until you use it, there's no clue that the Volcano fires with a launcher's splash radius, or the Hellfire and Ogre's insane proc reliability. My Bessie's card mentions the +500% critical bonus, but says its only got 97.8% accuracy even when its still a perfect scope and headshot while under Moxxi's Close Combat rules. Hell, I'm still trying to figure out what The Blister's special effect is! Sreza 09:15, May 29, 2010 (UTC) ::: :::Also, 3 things: 1) when it says +%600 damage, it actually means that whatever part thats causing that effect multiplies the weapons base damage by 7''' not 6. See, the card is showing the '''additional damage, so its (base damage)+(6*''base damage'')=(Boomstick's unique part damage)+(additive weapon parts)-(subtractive weapon parts)=for the card's displayed 450 damage, in this case. ::: :::2)Always consider the reload speed of a gun when calculating its DPS. If you only calculate the DPS with only damage, fire rate, buffs, elements, weaknesses, levels, and effects, you've only calculated the damage for 1 clip of that gun. If a gun with DPS calculated in this manner sustains 6000 damage over 2 seconds, it gives the'' illusion'' of having a DPS of 3000. But if you factor in a reload rate of 4 seconds, that becomes 6000 damage per 6 seconds, ie. a''' true DPS of only 1000'. Where as a similar gun with a "1-clip-DPS" of 2000 (4000 over 2 seconds) with a 1 second reload rate, has a '''true DPS of 1333'. In this case, I'd rate the first gun as great for general enemies, but the second gun is far superior when it comes to extended fire fights against bosses and Badasses. :::Note: It's been mentioned that you don't need to calculate the proficiency bonuses when comparing the same type of gun. Generally that's true, but not with reload speeds. The reload speed bonus from a proficiency must be calculated because the time reduction effect increases in magnitude to the length of the reload. Division changes everything! ::: :::3) I won't claim to be perfect, but I've spent quite a long time testing guns in Moxxi's playpen, and i think ive gotten all the gross details of weapon DPS down. If we begin with a Atlas Machine Gun with a listed damage of 150, a fire rate of 10, clip of 60, reload time of 2 seconds(again, very very important!), x4 explosive element, fictitious proficiency of +100% damage/-50% reload speed/+50% fire rate, a class mod buff of 50% damage, and Roland's Impact skill at level 5; we can begin the long '''process of trying to calculate it all. :::Begin with buffs, when all you're doing is multiplication, the order of operations is irrelevant, but now we have a division factor, changing everything! :::listed damage is 150, so 150*2(prof. bonus)*1.5(class mod bonus)*1.15(Impact bonus)+150*5(elemental bonus)= 1267 true damage :::listed fire rate is 10, so 10*1.5(prof. bonus)= 15 true fire rate :::base reload speed is 2 seconds, so 2/2(prof. bonus)= 1 second reload time :::Therefore, this gun has an instant DPS of 19005.' :::A '''clip DPS of 76020 over 4 seconds.' :::And a''' true DPS of 15204.' :::Be sure to account for changes to the clip size, on-kill buffs, enemy weaknesses, and team effects. :::To calculate level damage, subtract 25% from total damage per level against a higher level enemy, and add 25% total damage per level against a lower level enemy (not to exceed 200%). It's best to think of it as another buff/de-buff. :::Again, some weapons have odd effects. The Firehawk shows a x4 fire element, but it should be calculated as x6. No matter what, if a weapon shows a x3 or x4 element, unless it's a legendary gun, it won't proc past x2, so it should be calculated as such. ::: :::At the end of of this long rant, I must ask: Do you really want to do this for every gun? The easiest, best, and most fun way to figure out a weapon's DPS; is to just use it! If you're afraid of overleveling or death, give Moxxi a go! Instant enemies at your level and easy access to the bank from the start menu. This game may have elements from an RPG, but its a shooter too; leave the insane battle damage calculations to the Final Fantasy Tactics crew, and go play the game! Sreza 11:06, May 29, 2010 (UTC) ::: :::Again, files help. Every weapon has a "Tech level", and this Tech Level will determine the multiplier of elemental. It's an integer, which is 0 from all base weapons. All accessories tech (The little edge you see under the barrel and which "blinks") adds some points to tech. I know today only one part which removes tech : it's the part which makes shotguns rocket launchers (e.g. boom stick) by substracting 10^much to tech. A tech between 3 and 5 shows *1, 6 and 8 is *2, 9 and 11 is *3 and 12+ *4. If tech is 100, game will consider it like *33.3 in damage but will show you *4 in weapon card. :::And to determine if a weapon is good or bad, I test it and don't calculate DPS.Seud 11:22, May 29, 2010 (UTC) Clearing up a few misconceptions: The accessory on a gun is not the only determinate of the tech level, the accessory is mainly used to determine the '''element' of a weapon, the tech level is defined by nearly every part of a gun, although a good rule of thumb is that the parts labeled "3" give the highest tech increase, that said, the x1-2-3-4 on a gun doesnt actually change the damage per elemental proc, its an indicator of how large the tech pool of a gun is. Every time the gun procs an elemental shot, a certain amount of tech is removed from the pool. A larger tech pool can proc more often and has the opportunity to access stronger procs that cost more tech, so it does more damage over time The tech pool regenerates over time. This is why Sniper Rifles and Revolvers are the best elemental weapons, because, due to their slow fire rates, their tech regen rate is almost always higher than their fire rate, so they proc on almost every shot. Rocket launchers proc on every shot and always hit with either +100% or +200% damage from the element, but Snipers and Revolvers are favored for their ability to land critical hits. That being said, no non-Legendary gun can proc at higher than lvl 2, only Legendary guns can use the very costly lvl3 and lvl4 elemental procs. Sreza 11:53, May 29, 2010 (UTC) ...what? I just wanted to clarify what Seud meant by not showing up on the card. I believe most of that chunk is on 'Damage' or 'Elemental Damage' or some shit somewhere, but read up on it on GBXforums already, so I don't think it's a reply to me? --Nagamarky 12:48, May 29, 2010 (UTC) Sorry bout that, responding to both you and the OP, don't know how to get the formatting right >_< Sreza 12:56, May 29, 2010 (UTC) Sreza, you're wrong. I got legally (non-modded) a Fulgurating SMG (TEK3 Fulgurating SMG) with *4 Shock, as with much snipers and launchers with *4 Corrosive. As you say, tech is determined by every part of a gun. However, be aware some titles or prefixes also increase tech. And I didn't counted Maliwan materials.Seud 13:34, August 5, 2010 (UTC) : Did you have a nice nap? Nothing like waking up and reviving a 2 MONTH old thread, eh? BTW, just because you have a non-Legendary SMG with x4 doesn't mean it will proc at x4. Simple testing will prove that. So ... go back to sleep and we look forward to your reply sometime in October. -- MeMadeIt 16:28, August 5, 2010 (UTC) : : Anybody know if parts that says "Tech Level 0 (Pre-add)" do anything? Example is Semi-auto sniper barrel 5. WhackyGordon 19:55, August 5, 2010 (UTC) : : WhackyGordon : PreAdd only mean the value is added. There are too Scale (A multiplier) and Post-Add (i think there are additions which are done after the scales, and pre-add are done before) MeMadelt : Sorry, but you cannot be always at BL wiki even being a fan of it. You haven't always time to use a computer, or even be able to use Internet. And I confirm it procs at *4 because I used it during all playtrough 1 and a great part of 2 despite the fact its damage was relatively low (23, quality 1). And don't need to be impolite, i perfectly know this thread is old, but I revive it for some reasons : : - I'm one of the main posters in this thread, and vice-versa. : - It can be useful for those who wants to go past the game or simply understand something or something : - It reduces risks of duplicate threads (Like in MW2 forums, there are dozens of clone posts because "search" is under-used) : - Like everywhere, activity causes activity. If this post is active, it will remain : 2 months of absence. 1 answer = 2 others spaced by a few hours. : And before to say something, I know you have much more experience than me in wiki (1700 posts vs 21) : Seud 19:13, September 14, 2010 (UTC) LOL. Bring it to the flaming page, fellas. LET'S GET READY TO RUUUUUUUUMMMMMMBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEE!!!!!!!!!GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 19:28, September 14, 2010 (UTC) Gee, you woke up a couple of weeks early. No, it will NOT proc at x4. This has been confirmed. For your education - Elements, Multipliers, and YOU. Of course, if you would like to post the results of your own testing that proves it does indeed proc at x4, I'm sure the techies here and at the GBX forums will bow to your superior knowledge of BL game mechanics. -- MeMadeIt 21:02, September 14, 2010 (UTC) Ok, I were wrong. But did you know you could tell it to me without being so... unpleasant? Just giving me link to gbx forum post by explaining GENTLY I were wrong would have been much better. And even if my gun doesn't proc at *4, its efficiency is sufficient to allow me say : It's a very effective Shock SMG. Seud 15:51, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :At what point in our discussion about weapon tech was I less than 'professional'? I'm not the one to claim "I confirm it procs at *4". pffft, you want 'pleasant', go to Oprah. -- MeMadeIt 18:40, September 15, 2010 (UTC)